The political landscape in the U.S. is very divided.
It is the typical us-versus-them mentality — a mentality that, in my opinion, is heavily influenced by pathos arguments instead of logos arguments.
Pathos persuasion is based on feelings and emotions, while logos is based on reason and logic.
Certain people with preconceived notions may let their feelings get the best of them and may not be willing to change their minds.
That was the case until a few days ago — at least in the Wisconsin legislature.
For my readers outside of the U.S., Wisconsin is a neighboring state to where I live and is currently considered a "swing state" in presidential elections.
Swing states are states that could reasonably be won by either the Democratic or Republican candidate in an election, most often referring to presidential elections.
Case in point: Trump won it in 2016, Biden won it in 2020, and Trump won again in 2024.
So, what happened a few days ago at the Wisconsin legislature?
There was a debate on Assembly Bill 104, a bill restricting gender-affirming care for individuals under the age of 18. This is a hot topic in the U.S. More than half of the states have passed similar bills, and several of these changes have happened in the last few years.
I do not know enough about the topic to opine, and that is not the goal of this post.
What I want to focus on is Larry.
Larry went to the assembly with the intent of supporting the bill.
He was there for seven hours before he got a chance to speak.
During those hours, he heard arguments from the opposing side. He listened. And then he changed his mind.
In his own words:
"I was one of the critics that sat on the side and made the decision that there were only two genders. So I got an education that was unbelievable. And I don’t know exactly how to say this, but my perspective on people has changed. So I don’t want to take up any more of your time. I’d like to apologize for being here, and I learned a lot about this group of people."
Wow.
How is that related to internal audit?
In many ways.
The first one that comes to mind is thinking that we know all that we need to know about our craft. I was like that after leaving the world-class team at FedEx. I thought that I needed to implement their processes at my new company. Wrong. Certainly, there were processes that were useful and built my foundation in the profession, but I was — and continue to be — very far from knowing it all.
The second realization of how much I don’t know came after starting my podcast. I have been privileged to have discussions with the best minds in the business as part of the show. Those discussions have opened my eyes to new ideas and processes.
One of those conversations was with Oscar Trimboli, book author and host of the podcast Deep Listening.
The episode can be found here. You should listen to the episode, but here is a preview of why it is hard for people to listen properly: The 125-400-900 Rule.
We can speak at 125 words per minute.
But we can listen at 400 words per minute.
That alone creates a gap where people don’t listen to what is being said — they get distracted.
To further complicate the problem, people can think at a rate of 900 words per minute. The bottom line is that we are really just scratching the surface in conversations. And that is where deep listening becomes important.
Deep listening is not just hearing words — it is listening for meaning. It requires setting aside preconceived notions, being fully present, and allowing new perspectives to shape our understanding.
That is exactly what Larry did.
He came in with a firm stance, but decided to listen. Listen not just to respond, but to understand. And in doing so, he changed his mind.
How often have you allowed yourself to do the same?
When was the last time you changed your mind?